Natural Church Development
Hey Folks: We're doing the Natural Church Development survey here at Zion in Redmond. We've grown in worship attendance and giving each by about 10 % over last year, after a time of interim ministry, and now need to do some strategic vision casting, and NCD is a great tool for that.
I used it about 10 years ago and it was very helpful, though there wasn't the ELCA emphasis on NCD with the follow-up survey. We have 30 ministry leaders who are all committed to the process of discovery and planning, and it should be very helpful to us.
My question is what other people's experiences has been in terms of implementation. We're having an Implementation Team and two Ministry Summits before we take the survey again next year, but I'd like to hear any experiences with NCD that have been helpful in your context. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Eric Burtness
Zion Redmond
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NCD Coach
Eric
Did you know Rutter Harrah at Oregon City is the volunteer coordinator for NCD in the Synod?
You outta talk to him about getting a coach -- it takes some of the pressure off you and helps your committee/congregation through the process. We have trained coaches available.
NCD Coach
Hey John: Yep, I talked with John R-H when we began the process, and Ron Gregg is our NCD Coach. Ron is great, and we'll rely on his expertise as we get into the process. I see Ron regularly at our monthly pastor's meeting.
So yeah, done that. Gonna be good.
Eric B.
Hey John...
So have you done NCD and the follow-through, John? No responses so far on this. I thought at least some people had done it over the past years, but perhaps not.
We have our first meeting to take the survey on Sunday, and I was hoping to bring some "stories of success" from around the synod to our meeting. Especially with the follow-through results. That's what we're focusing on here as a part of our mission planning and vision casting.
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
NCD at Our Savior's (LO)
Our Savior's in Lake Oswego completed its first plan in late 2009. Our "maxiumIm leverage point" was inspiring worship and we learned a lot about how to improve our worship services. In January 2010, we imploded and so didn't really start the full implementation. The good news from the implosion was that the new congregation has used a lot of the NCD information to create better worship experiences.
History with NCD
I have two levels of participation -- as a coach and as a Pastor whose church went through NCD.
We got part of the way through at Christ the Good Shep. We had a well chosen core crew -- based on abilities to best leverage the information we got. We took the survey. Low factor was evangelism. We set up a follow-up meeting and invited the evangelism people to be part of the process. They never showed up. We tried a couple of times -- no luck. We folded our tents. There was a good reason it was our lowest factor -- no leadership, low interest beyond immediate,. short term projects. "Without a vision, the people perish." (Or is that "parish.")
I coached Grace, Corvallis, a medium sized congregation with membership including many from OSU staff. They did a great job. I think they're low factor was inspiring worship. They expanded their committee, set up an investigative process in the congregation with some innovative ideas to draw people in, and devised stratagies, launched them, evaluated them and tweaked them as needed. I'd say it was a good advertisement for following the process.
I'm presently coaching Fir Lawn, Sweet Home, a small congregation, small town, log and retirement based. Small Groups was the minimum factor. There was enthusiasm for the process. It took the core committee some time to get their heads around the process and define what small group meant in their small context. But once they did they did a top notch job of communicating with and fully engaging the congregation in what they found out. They did congregation-wide small groups using affinity exercises to define what a meaningful small group would look like for the members. They generated a really good energy in the process that is helping to vitalize the whole congregation. They are still in the process of deciding strategies. They had a meeting a couple of weeks ago but I haven't had a chance to to to Joe Medley, the Pastor, so I don't know what next steps they are taking. The size of the congregation was such that in the investigation phase the whole congregation acted sort of as a committee of the whole. This was a case of the outcome being greater than the sum of the parts.
Hope this is useful.
John
NCD Results
Hi Becky and John:
Thanks for your responses. I would have responded sooner, but didn't get any emails that there were responses to this post, though I did get a lot of emails about Occupy stuff, which doesn't float my boat.
Becky, that's evident from Our Savior's. I preached there a year ago before coming over to Zion, and there was just a spirit of welcome and joy there, even after the implosion. Plus, every time I have heard Kim preach I'm amazed at how well he does. Great gifted pastor. Not as good as Maas, by any means, but right up there. :)
And John, thanks for the info. Yeah, if the evangelism team doesn't even show up for the evangelism meetings, it's time to fold the tents. But Fir Lawn/Sweet Home is in probably a similar place than us. Glancing through the surveys before I send them in, almost all the questions about "small groups" was low, so I'm sure that'll be a very low factor for us. On the other hand, the people who put the survey together come from the perspective that small groups are integral to congregational health. Personally, I think that was the "in" perspective in the 1990's, but I'm not sure about today, as there are other ways to organize ministry. I think ministry teams are a much more effective way to get people involved in ministries where they gifted and passionate (rather than just filling the church's "needs" as per "volunteers").
Where I was pleasantly surprised at Zion was that every single person of the 30 I invited to take the survey, came and took it. And they're invested in the results and implementation. And I told them that a post-trauma congregation is one where things like NCD can be amazingly beneficial, as if things are "good enough" in a congregation, there's no real reason for change. "Good enough" is the biggest impediment to transformative ministry, I think. At Zion I feel a real shift from "keeping the church together" to "moving the church forward." Which is cool. We've accepted about 25 new members this year, and now we need to focus and discern a specific mission/vision plan, which we'll have by this time next year.
Here's an interesting thought, John. Part of what I want to build into our mission/vision plan is to be a resource/consultant for post-trauma congregations. I've served 5 post-trauma congregations now as an "after pastor" in each one, and there are specific do's and don't's (sp?) in post trauma congregations that I've learned over the years that can't be addressed with interim pastors, who serve another purpose.
Oh, and Becky, we've started to send some benevolence monies to student scholarships at Luther Seminary, and we got a nice Thank You note from Lisa Cohen, which will go in our November newsletter. There's been no connection between Zion and Luther at all, but it's starting. And by the way, nice pic in Luther's publicity!
So thanks, this is helpful.
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
Remembering NCD purpose
I've not had the sense in any of the NCD material or training that they have a particular agenda with the form of small groups in the congregation, but that the ones that are there (or could be there) have some of the factors of healthy groups -- I think they list 5 or 6. Fir Lawn identified 3 values in small groups that they felt were necessary:
The thing I kept stressing with Fir Lawn was that they were the ones who identified the area as their weak point -- not some outside expert. As such it allowed them to ask themselves what THEY meant by saying that.
Most of us that have been around the church for any time (and their members have been) remember the small group movement starting way back with Lyman Coleman. So overcoming that programmatic image became important at Fir Lawn. The easiest way was to talk to the Pastor before hand so I knew what groups already existed and then asked the core committtee that question, "What small groups already exist here?" After dismissing the programmatic image they were able to identify 4 or 5 groups. They ranged from a LWR quilting group to a group of guys who always sit together at coffee after church. Once we got to that point they were able to begin identifying values important to them in groups.
They are at the point now of asking, "What do we do with the groups we have? Are there groups that we would like to see? Do we want to be welcoming of people not in our groups, and if so, how do we go about it." In other words -- they are ready to begin an implentation phase.
I think the crucial phase for a coach is shaping the core group as the ones who "get" the concept and the nature of the lowest factor, and then helping them set up their processes of investigating what the low factor means for THAT congregation. Once those two steps are in place the implementation phase seems to take care of itself.
You Betcha.
Hey John: Yep, gotcha. If the survey would have used the terms "ministry teams" I think our group would have answered it differently. It's mostly related to the use of the term, at least here, where it hasn't been used.
But that's where our Implementation Team will sort through the results and interpret them, as you've helped Fir Lawn discover.
And you betcha; those three values of "small groups" are the same core calues of ministry teams. But again, small groups are different from ministry teams.
So I'm looking foward to the results, and the ongoing vision/mission planning here.
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
the purpose of small groups
Hi Eric -
I think that the purpose of small groups is for people to feel a part of the larger community. The small group members are the ones who notice if you're not in church for a few Sundays and know what's going on in your life. Yes, there are many ways to get people involved in ministries.
What are you doing looking at the surveys before they're sent in???? The results should be a surpise to both the pastor(s) and the committee.
Thanks for the gifts to the Luther Seminary student scholarship fund! They are truly needed and gratefully received.
Becky
"What are you doing looking at the questionaires?"
That's pretty funny, Becky.
You're asking that of a guy whose a control freak.
Any other questions?
Any other questions?
Hey John. Yeah, just one more.
Rules? What rules?
:)
What rules?
Surfers rule.
Digression
You two digress...
True...
Hi Becky: Yes, that's true.
And that's one thing I've always loved about Maas...
Circling the drain
And another potentially wonderful conversation digresses into . . . :)
NCD support has been more or less lost with Deb Mantey's exit from the office. That is one of many programs she oversaw. But even prior to that we were having some problem figuring out to get surveys scored. So, anyway, I'm glad to see you all continuing to work with NCD. It's a great program for many congregtions.
And thanks to John R-H who is doing great working with you all. Help us keep NCD alive a well and let us know what you all need from the synod office.
Digressions
I don't think it's allowed to say that to me.
I have ADHD, which means I'm an endangered species. Wait, that's not right. Maybe . . . um, I'm covered by the ADA -- Americans with Disabilities Act.
Or, oh, look at that cool car. Do you like my shoes.
What were we talking about?
What we need from the synod office?
Hey Dave: Good question!
First off, diversion is healthy, I think. I've said for years that the church that plays together, stays together. Maas is such a good guy to have fun with, though he's also a guy who knows what to take very seriously. So diversion and fun is an important part of health.
If you're truly asking what do we need from the synod office, I have a some thoughts.
Refocus. Fundamentally refocus.
In my experience, most synod offices focus on ill-health. Like firemen/women putting out fires. So many people say that they only see or hear from the bishop in most synods when there is a problem. And that's because the focus of most synods, I think, is on ill-health.
And that's important, to a point. But focusing on prevention and church health will resolve issues of ill-health.
I just finished up an 8 part sermon series on Marks of a Healthy Church. Part of that has to do with an assessment of the current status of the patient. See www.zionredmond.blogspot.com and listen to the sermon on September 11 for that. Part of what I say is that our grief over the passing of the greatest decade in the history of the church, the 1950's, is what's hindering church health. You'll get my point if you listen to it.
Taking an assessment of ELCA church life in Oregon is pretty dismal. When I came to the Oregon Synod in 1997 there were 52,000 ELCA Lutherans in Oregon, with a state population of 3.5 mil. That represented a "market share" of 1.42 percent of the state's population. In 2011 we have about 40,000 ELCA Lutherans in Oregon with a state population of almost 4 mil. That represents a 1 percent "market share."
According the the ELCA website statistics, there are only a handful of congregations who are "growing." 95 percent are declining over a 5 year span.
The patient is on life support. Time to refocus on health, I think.
Here's one way to do that. I think we all know that the Dean system isn't working. It's based on geography, rather than congregational affinity.
What I'd like to see, if you're asking what we need from the synod office, is a refocus on health. Instead of the Dean system, identify 10 healthy congregations and pastors. Knutson, Knapp, and Struck are the easiest three of ten. Call those 10 pastors and 2 representatives together at the synod office, and assign the rest of the 100 congregations to them, based on affinity rather than on geography. With video conferencing, Skype, FB groups, geography is irrelevant.
Ask those 10 pastors/congregations to commit to NCD and implementing the results (Ah, you were probably wondering when NCD would come in!).
Then ask those 10 healthy pastors/congregations to be coaches, contacts, consultants, mentors; whatever you want to call them, to the 10 congregations that are assigned to them, based on size, style, and affinity. Be bold as a bishop and ask every congregation in the Oregon Synod to take NCD as a 3 year focus for the synod. At $350 per congregation, if it's undertaken as a synod commitment to church health, I'm certain that the LIly Endowment would gladly give 35k to fund the entire synod project.
Then, church health can be the focus of synod assemblies and bishop's convocations. In 5 years the Oregon Synod could be full of healthy and vibrant congregations.
At no cost. Just a refocus. If you're truly asking what "we" need from the synod office, I think that's what we need. You've got Michael and Glen who are absolutely great mission minded guys who could be key to making this happen. Give 'em Ray Ban sunglasses, hats, black suits, and they could tour the synod as the Keys Brothers. :)
I think there are ways to get the patient off life support. But ya gotta focus on church health, rather than ill-health. We're doing it at Zion, and it's working. I think we can do it as a synod. That's what we need from the synod office.
So, just some thoughts...
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
Eric, Were you at the synod
Eric,
Were you at the synod council meeting last weekend??? The group talked about how we get congregations to put together a ministry plan over the next three years. I believe that NCD could be one of those methods of planning. The challenge will be getting the "ill health" congregations to look outside their church walls and realize that they can't keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results. The healthier congregations will plan and then thrive while the others will deny that there is a need to plan. It's an ecclesiastical version of Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest...
There are also conversations occuring about how to restructure the dean function and clusters. The synod council is putting together a taskforce for this work. Should I add your name to the list of potential members? I would bet money that the final configruation will not be based upon geographies. That's how everyone thought in the mid-80s but it isn't applicable for today, and we know it. We are hoping to do this taskforce work via phone.
John, your shoes look nice and you still owe me a beer for getting your calendar back to you.
Becky
Synod Council???
Hey Becky: No, I wasn't at the synod council meeting last week.
But I did stay at a Holidan Inn Express last week.
And I did have a nice long talk with Glen Chase about the same thing that I wrote in my note above.
But yes, put my name in. And listen to my sermon on that blog from September 11, which is the introduction to the sermon series I did on Marks of a Healthy Church. Personally, I've heard so much that this church is "not your father's oldsmobile" all the while we continue to insist on driving our 1965 Delta 88. There's a whole lot of ways to "do church" that's so different (and much more effective) than the denomonationalism of the 1950's. Networking with healthy congregations is one way to do that, I think, and if the Lily Endowment would fund it, there's no cost to the synod except a 3-5 year philosophlical buy in, and then synod assembly speakers supporting that theme. It could literally change the 95 % decline rate in the Oregon Synod.
Yeah, it's kind of a survival of the fittest, but it's also focusing on the un-fit and helping them become more fit and vibrant. Most of those un-fit congregations and pastors are ones who still listen to what the synod office says, so there's at least some hope there.
So yes, put my name on any list you'd like. Or...any list that would be appropriate.... :)
Something is happening here at Zion. Tomorrow we're accepting 18 new members, on top of the 12 we accepted a couple months ago, so that's 30 this year; 10 percent of our current 312 membership. And I discovered a while back that we have 7 previously trained Stephen Ministers here at Zion (that's what I was talking to Glen about...) so we've been meeting, and will pay the $1,675 in January to become a Stephen Ministry congregation, and will be the only ELCA Stephen's congregation in Central Oregon. So something is happening here. Both you and I know it ain't me...
Oh, and most importantly, I also like John's shoes. He's always been a snappy dresser.
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
Synod Council???
Hey Becky: No, I wasn't at the synod council meeting last week.
But I did stay at a Holidan Inn Express last week.
And I did have a nice long talk with Glen Chase about the same thing that I wrote in my note above.
But yes, put my name in. And listen to my sermon on that blog from September 11, which is the introduction to the sermon series I did on Marks of a Healthy Church. Personally, I've heard so much that this church is "not your father's oldsmobile" all the while we continue to insist on driving our 1965 Delta 88. There's a whole lot of ways to "do church" that's so different (and much more effective) than the denomonationalism of the 1950's. Networking with healthy congregations is one way to do that, I think, and if the Lily Endowment would fund it, there's no cost to the synod except a 3-5 year philosophlical buy in, and then synod assembly speakers supporting that theme. It could literally change the 95 % decline rate in the Oregon Synod.
Yeah, it's kind of a survival of the fittest, but it's also focusing on the un-fit and helping them become more fit and vibrant. Most of those un-fit congregations and pastors are ones who still listen to what the synod office says, so there's at least some hope there.
So yes, put my name on any list you'd like. Or...any list that would be appropriate.... :)
Something is happening here at Zion. Tomorrow we're accepting 18 new members, on top of the 12 we accepted a couple months ago, so that's 30 this year; 10 percent of our current 312 membership. And I discovered a while back that we have 7 previously trained Stephen Ministers here at Zion (that's what I was talking to Glen about...) so we've been meeting, and will pay the $1,675 in January to become a Stephen Ministry congregation, and will be the only ELCA Stephen's congregation in Central Oregon. So something is happening here. Both you and I know it ain't me...
Oh, and most importantly, I also like John's shoes. He's always been a snappy dresser.
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
Source of shoes
I have great sole.
Please, please, no groaning, it disturbs the patients.
Foci
One of the times I was really hacked off at the ability of the state-wide church to shoot down anything that threatened anyone for any reason I put my frustrations in a letter that I was going to send to the Synod Council (I was a member of it at the time.)
A really smart guy asked me, "Why are you wasting your time continuing to duke it out with people who are, basically, brick walls?" He suggested that it is much more productive to find others who are of a like mind and disire to move ministry forward and simply work with them where ever it is possible -- in or out of the structure. What good advice.
It's sort of what you're talking about, Eric -- affinity groups. Your idea is a sound one, but I don't think it has to be either/or. I think we have fertile soil in the Vineyard Cluster. The numbers may not show it, but, for instance, the spirit in Lebenon and Sweet Home is dynamite -- one a bitty congregation that had seen itself on the edges of the church and the other split by the CWA stuff. Sweet Home is a case study of how NCD can help not only focus a congregation but energize it.
The hump is how to begin connecting the congregations within these groups -- either geographical or non-geo. Perhaps ditching the geography structure is a key -- we're so used to it being a model that doesn't work that . . . it doesn't work.
Bishop B-R (good thing Gretchen's maiden name wasn't Meyer.) I think you have a core of coaches that are experienced and willing to serve. I don't know how John R-H can hold the web of NCD folks together . . . or even what needs to be held together. Jeez, I feel like I'm rambling.
Okay -- focus -- Affinity groups. Small groups with a common purpose. Maybe the NCD coaches are such a group. Maybe we need to sit down together -- maybe with the Bishop -- and talk about what we are willing to do. With some consensus we then become a resource for the Synod. for the clusters. If we don't have the luxury of a staff person then perhaps it is important enough to us to provide continuity. Isn't that a key to a succesful ministry -- that people within it are willing to do what it takes for that ministry to occur?
I think there must be other groups in the Synod that function well and could do the same thing -- I don't know, what has to make it all happen with a system? I guess that's something that's more your responsibility, David.
Becky -- I'll get that beer to you somehow, some day? Any particular brand?
Not both/and...
Hey John:
You know, I'm not quite saying what you're suggesting above. It's been my experience that we've tried the both/and and it hasn't worked. It's kind of like we've tried to put a new paint job on that 1965 Delta 88, hung an air freshener around the mirror, and called it a 2011 Toyota Camry. Or like hanging a g-string to the emperorer with no clothes and figured it's good. Or tried to put lipstick on a pig, well, I guess that one has been used before...
I guess it's my perspective that when 95 percent of ELCA congregations in Oregon are on a propofol drip it's either time to squeeze the bag, or to try something completely different. I'm not so much talking affinity groups, or small groups with a purpose. Rather, what I'm suggesting is focusing on church health by identifying 10 of the most vibrant and healthy and growing pastors and congregations, and pairing them with 10 declining congregations based on commonality, rather than on geography. Not so much with the current NCD coaches unless they're one of the 10. Then, as one tool, NCD can be used for the second phase, after nurturing those 10. The third phase would be to focus synod assemblies on church health, from the workshops, to the music, to the speakers. My two delegates came back from the last synod assembly scratching their heads with what anything at the assembly had to do with life at Zion, except for Becky Brown's most excellent church council workshop. It was all old church stuff. Even Shane, they thought, was the same stuff they heard back in the pre-dredlocks 1960's.
Dave is very good at defining the unchurched context of Oregon, but has said many times, "But I don't know what to do about it." Well, this would be one thing to do about it that would focus on health rather than ill-health and decline and closing congregations and decreased benevolence. Focus on health, and those other things will take care of themselves.
Or, crank up the propofol drip.
I'm a die-hard optimist. I am also fully convinced that there is a solution. Fully convinced. But also fully convinced that we're not getting there from here on our current path.
Oh, and John, where do you buy your shoes?
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
Yesbut
I think you have a good idea. Nurture what's working and use it as a point of evangelizing others who want it.
What do we do with the rest? Just let them die? With some, the answer is yes. But there are others who still answer the fundatmental question, "Is this Christ's church?" "Yes." They may not fit your profile but they are to be brought along, too.
How? Well with ideas like we are banging around. Heck, Chase and Bethel is one model. Moe and Redeemer is another model. I'll stick with both and AS LONG as there is intentionality to follow Christ.
Intentionality...Rock on, dude
Hey John: Yes, if I were in charge of this whole renewal and refocus that we're talking about, Chase and Moe would be two of the 10. There are ways to renew and refocus even dying urban congregations. Creativity, intentionality, and focus helps.
So does spiritual vitality and personal piety. We've lost that, I think, in recent years. Haven't heard those words at at Oregon Synod event in a long time. But it's key, as you say, to focus on intentionally following Jesus. I tell people here that our mission statement should be to do whatever it takes to get the Jesus thing done.
Check out this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-briggs/its-the-spirituality-stup_b_1031212.html
They agree. From the article, "...some denominations have shifted emphasis away from personal piety toward social service programs." No wonder people aren't at mainline churches. Might as well be at Kiwanis.
Of course, passionate spirituality and inspiring worship are two of the measurements of NCD.
As for the "dying" Portland inner city churches on the propofol drip, there may well be much better options that squeezing the bag. I think most of us still believe in the resurrection of the body. There's even a few of us who still think that old, dead, stinky, given-up-for-gone Lazarus was actually called forth from the tomb. Them dead bones ain't gonna be revived by another social service program, or by being a part of Occupy. Ya gotta start with Jesus. Last I checked, Jesus still has a couple miracles up his sleeve. "I'll be there as I have always been, with just one more surprise." My personal piety still believes that.
Yeah, maybe some of my All Saints sermon is coming out just a bit.
I'd much rather be thinking about your shoes, John, and am working up the courage to email your wife for her shopping secrets.
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
Personal Piety and Oregon Synod Spirituality
I am the first to admit that my personal spiritual life is inconsistant. But spending 30 days as a member of the Trappist Abbey was a turning point in my spiritual life. It is where I learned some practice and where I met the quiet part of me, a part that I like a lot.
I have to push you a little on what the Synod has provided in this area, though. I thought Sara Miles, two years ago, was a smashing witness to the power of the Holy Spirit to change lives. A few years back we had Kelly Frier, another witness to the intentionality of being a Holy Spirit presence where we are as a way of living our faith.
Now, I think one of Satan's greatest victories is the division between Christian piety and Christian social serving. It is another us/them side taking. The pietists wonder if the activists are even Christian anymore and the activists think of the pietists as sitting in the fading Portland congregations to which you refer.
What if the activists relied on the pietists for spiritual support? What if the pietists relied on the activists to keep them up to date about the cutting edge of witness in the world?
REALLY liked Sara Miles description of her church where there are two congregations -- the one who gathers around the table of the Sacrament on Sunday and the one who gathers around the same table on Fridays to feed the hungry.
I've been SO taken with Matthew this lectionary year -- for the first time. Lay the Beatitudes alongside the parable of the last judgement told just before the crucifixion. Where is the division between peitism and social action in those?
Let the one who is moved by the Holy Spirit rise up and live out that to which s/he has been led. Be it in pious spirituality or social activism.
And . . .Yes, personal piety, but show me anywhere in Scripture where personal call did NOT lead to community in God's realm? And, before you can say it, Yes, corporate unity, but show me in Scripture where the One does not call out individuals.
Doc cleared me for sports last Tuesday. So I'm back to volley ball and golf. Yipppeeee! (poor shoulder.)
Amen!
Amen, bro. Amen.
Shoes
I buy my shoes where and when my wife tells me.
Anyone who has a problem with that should make an appointment with her.
But I don't advise it.
Pssssssst....Hey John
Hey John: As a retired dude, did you get Dave's letter today? I think we've worked out a pretty good "how" to the "what" of his letter in this threaded discussion. Somehow there needs to be a plan for how to get "there" from "here" and I think we're on to something that would work very well, with not much more than a "Let's Do It" from the synod office staff.
Refocus. Re-engage. Re-energize.
I think it would work. But hey, that's just from me from a place where it's working.
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
well said
"One can not get into heavn without a letter of reference from the poor."
(a quote)
If piety was the only reason one went to church going there would be pointless. Almost every form of religion today mentions service as well as piety. Evangelism could be considerd service and without that we would have only a handful of parishioners in any given church let alone a congregation helping it's own members.
.ed
ggg
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