Is there Justice in occupying Wall Street?
We have an opportunity to reach out to a growing social action. We have all seen the rising numbers and attention the various Occupy Wall Street groups have garnered and I think that we could bring some important images and direction to these gatherings.
While the various gatherings seem to be just a sign of growing discontent with the way things are, with so many issues and topics being addressed, the general consensus is that their is no real leadership to these groups. Could we as the church lend some focus and language to such groups? I would like to know what people think about this.
It is true that justice and economic issues are found throughout scripture, so there is a lot of imagery and language for us to draw from. What are some ways we can draw from our faith and traditions to address these groups?
There is also the issue of politics. We don't usually like to get mixed up in them. It can be dangerous to congregations and not all of us agree about how the country should be run. But perhaps we can avoid the trouble of taking sides if we simply call for greater transparancy and justice within the system. This seems to be a value for people on all sides of the political spectrum. Do people see problems or have other suggestions?
I think getting involved in these groups could be a very productive activity. It could give our church some needed exposure, give people a different view of Christianity than just the fundamentalist image we generally see in the media, and help us to be an increasing force in realm of advocacy.
"All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10
I am interested to see where this conversation goes. Please contribute!
Blessings,
Travis Larsen
While I think people of faith
While I think people of faith have much to add to this conversation I do not think we should approach involvement with the idea of getting exposure or bringing direction. This is a grassroots movement based in growing dissatisfaction with politicians and a consumer based society. Wall Street/Corporations are the focus because of bailouts, questionable practices by wall street, lack of reform of the system that caused the crash and because they've been given human status the through the recent Supreme Court decision. In addition to all that, people are suffering for the sake of profits for corporations.
This movement is purposely using a shared leadership model, I believe because the leadership model used by corporations and government is failing them miserably and has for awhile. The people are beginning to realize that the problems we face as global citizens are too huge and interconnected to try to solve them they way we've always solved problems. It's time for new ways of problem solving if we want new solutions.
While I think people of faith and clergy in particular should be visible at these events, if we try to use them to get exposure or try to impose our direction it will backfire and be seen as self-serving. Personally, I think the issues are too enormous and the timing too critical for me to want to do anything but pray and join in the search for new ways of solving problems WITH them.
To get a better sense of what's happening you can follow Protest Chaplains on facebook as well as The Christian Left on facebook and blogs and YES magazine.
Occupy Portland Participation?
I think both of you have valid points. Two members of Central (NE Portland), where I'm serving as the interim pastor, are involved in Occupy Portland; one of them is an organizer and had asked me to be a peacekeeper, which I had to decline, because I cannot invest that kind of time. I did go down to the waterfront myself on the first day to "check it out." It was pretty cool, I have to say! I've also been following the Protest Chaplains and the Christian Left.
One of Central's members is prodding me about trying to organize something like Protest Chaplains here. Personally, I don't have the time or the know-how to do this, but just this evening I e-mailed UCC pastor Chuck Currie, who has been spending quite a bit of time at the camp and likely has a handle on what the needs/desires of the people are. I told him some of us pastors are asking: How can we best be supportive?
Meanwhile, we can pray and continue to speak out for justice!
Social Justice
"As Lutheran Christians, we have a place in the public arena ... we aspire to be thoughtful citizens, holding our public leaders accountable for shaping public policy in a way that serves the community, seeks a just society, and cares especially for the poor and the vulnerable" The concept is that Christians should not merely give to the poor, but also work to correct unjust conditions that keep people poor.
I really do not know how many from our congregation feel that we as Lutherans, have a place in this public arena. There is a "line" that is acceptable. I believe we do. I believe that is what Jesus taught us: be good citizens, holding public leaders accountable for a policy that seeks to help and care for the poor and the vulnerable. I was raised to give to the poor and the needy by donations of money or clothes or food . . . but the concept of standing up, side by side for the injustices as in protests or rallys,was never pronounced through the church, but through my parents and through my work through labor.
While many churches are silent on this type of activism, many in my congregation know of my committment as an activist in these areas and it has been treated with questions and more questions. I think, Jesus even as a small boy knew that we all have a place in this arena of social justice.
I will include a rally I worked on recently, which included politicians, city leaders and the clergy. This is a video that I put together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h28l651nUc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
The second video is of photos I took from Occupy Portland in a slide show presentation which I made recently as a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umXV1snBSL4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Love to hear your feedback!
Sincerely and in Peace
Patty Olson
Member of Gethsemane Lutheran Church and Legislative Director for the American Postal Workers Union Portland Oregon.
Occupy/Advocacy
Thank you for your comments to this thread. I have begun to have a similar conversation with my congregation and am working to put together a class on Biblical views of wealth and poverty. If anyone has any material they might suggest for this topic I would be grateful.
To continue the discussion I want to ask, if there is no real head or single goal to this movement, how do we lend the weight of our faith to it? The consensus seems to be (open for discussion) that our global society needs "reformation". The distribution of power is too top heavy with the wealthy continually changing the rules in their favor. So the various groups that are involved in the Occupy movement are calling for greater fairness and justice in various parts of society. They hope to have greater distribution of power and wealth, a value we find within scripture (I am thinking of Jubilee, or perhaps the Acts community).
I don't want to highjack the movement, but rather lend the wisdom and morallity our faith offers to the discussion. What is the best way to do this? Do we gather as many people from our congregations and march as well? Or do we lend our voice in critiquing (positive or negative) the movement and its activities. Some are already getting involved and I don't want us to miss an opportunity to connect with the missing generation in churches, especially because I am one of them.
For me I see this as an opportunity to find common ground for a number of different groups. Within our churches it can connect the increasingly disassociated 20 and 30 somethings with the boomers and their issues. Both groups are feeling the pinch of the loss of the middle class. One in the fact that they have fewer and fewer opportunities and the other in that they see the security of their pensions slipping away. Perhaps we can also reach across the sharp political aisle and garner support from both Left and Right. All are affected by the growing gape between the rich and the poor. Can we as the church sound a battle cry that will reach across the varous devides and give people a common goal? If so, how?
I would love to hear from people on all sides of this issue. Perhaps you disagree with the Occupy movement, please tell me why and try to include Biblical support for your position. I am hoping to find a balanced approach that will speak to all the faithful, not just those that have already bought into the Occupy movement. Thank you.
Our Christian Voice
Travis, you bring up some great questions here. I'm trying to imagine my way into some of your possibilities.
I have a hard time seeing many folks from St. Paul joining the march downtown. Or, for that matter, many "typical" Lutherans. It hasn't traditoinally been our way of expressing ourselves. However, I can totally see people newer to our churches doing exactly that. So who is the "we" we are talking about?
I just think these are the right questions, and that some folks would like to do something, and this is one way to do it. In house (church) Bible study is another.
Sometimes it's not about
Sometimes it's not about talking or preaching, but just being a presence. It seems to me it would be a pretty wonderful thing if the people at Occupy Portland could see that we Christians care about injustice just as much as they do, and that we care about them as people. Perhaps having Pastors there with collars on would show that we are all children of God and that we do care about each other. Just thinking.
Justice for ALL should be our goal
A one sided protest against government inaction, or corporate excess and greed, or the lack of moral governance of investor’s money all have their points and moments in time. From my diverse background and perspective, I see the real issue for every Christian, lay and clergy, has to be justice for ALL of God’s created people.
We need to support those in government who will take action to change unjust practices and systems. We need to support those businesses that want to protect their investors, workers, and customers equally from harm. We need to support those who want to see our justice system, law enforcement agencies, and the whole of civil society promoting morals that care for and protect all segments of society.
The presence of the Church through the visible action of congregations, individual Christians, and clergy is needed to insure that justice prevails for ALL people whether they be rich or poor. The visible support for ALL seem to fulfill the ideals of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as proclaimed in Mathew 23:23, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justiceand mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others.” I pray for a more visible presence of the whole church in the world.
A good suggestion
I saw this today in my weekly Sojourners email, regarding the Occupy movements. I thought it was relevant to this discussion. It was part of the weekly message from Jim Wallis:
Don’t worry about endorsing the Occupy Wall Street movement (all the diverse elements involved wouldn’t even endorse each other!), but rather engage it. I asked a young African-American man I met at Occupy Wall Street what churches could do to help. He suggested three things: inspiration, consultation, and presence. I think that’s a very good guide. Worship services are already being held at many of the sites, led by local clergy of many faiths. Take a potluck meal down to the site as a chance to sit, eat, and talk with the people there. Take your youth group or members of your congregation down there after church just to see, meet, and listen. Offer the occupiers support—material and spiritual—along with prayer and love.
I agree with you Mieke, the
I agree with you Mieke, the presence is very importand. At many rallies to Save the Postal Service Father Bob always speaks to the crowds putting the humane view to the effects of postal closures to the low income and the elderly for example. We are all Children of God. Remember we as Christians do not have to agree with ALL of the positions of Occupy Portland, but there are some issues worth advocating. I, at times, imagine Jesus walking through this crowd and talking amongst the people. Many of the people at the rally could probably use a good word of encouragement and compassion just as we all do in our lives. Just thinking! I plan on being down there Monday morning, hoping to speak at the rally.
I agree with you Mieke, the
I agree with you Mieke, the presence is very importand. At many rallies to Save the Postal Service Father Bob always speaks to the crowds putting the humane view to the effects of postal closures to the low income and the elderly for example. We are all Children of God. Remember we as Christians do not have to agree with ALL of the positions of Occupy Portland, but there are some issues worth advocating. I, at times, imagine Jesus walking through this crowd and talking amongst the people. Many of the people at the rally could probably use a good word of encouragement and compassion just as we all do in our lives. Just thinking! I plan on being down there Monday morning, hoping to speak at the rally.
I agree
I agree with you Mieke, the presence is very importand. At many rallies to Save the Postal Service Father Bob always speaks to the crowds putting the humane view to the effects of postal closures to the low income and the elderly for example. We are all Children of God. Remember we as Christians do not have to agree with ALL of the positions of Occupy Portland, but there are some issues worth advocating. I, at times, imagine Jesus walking through this crowd and talking amongst the people. Many of the people at the rally could probably use a good word of encouragement and compassion just as we all do in our lives. Just thinking! I plan on being down there Monday morning, hoping to speak at the rally.
Sounds like Theology of the Cross to me...
I agree, presence is important. It gives us a clearer idea of the realities of the situation, but also lends support and perhaps a none anxious presence to all that is happening. I have plans with Pastor Glen Chase to go down to the rally sometime soon and lend a little of my presence. But first we are meeting with a representative of the movement. After we find out more I hope to come back with more info and see what we can do to be supportive. I hope to have more to share with all those that are interested in the next few days. Thank you for your comments.
Is there Justice in Occupying Wall Street?
I like what both Bishop Dave and Katy say about exploring different aspects of the Occupy Movement that touch on our faith, either within our congregations or at the Occupy site, and also about supporting the protesters with our presence and perhaps a meal or other practical material needs (see the list on the Occupy Portland website).
Not everyone at Central is supportive, but one of the members is very active in organizing Occupy Portland. She has let us know that tomorrow (Friday, Oct. 21) at 11:30, there's a march on poverty. Now, THAT'S something I think most of us can support! :) I'm planning to participate. Anyone else?
Peace,
Michelle Manicke
Here's the link: http://occupypdx.org/2011/10/19/portland-poverty-awareness-march-fri-oct...
Who's Up 4-It?
OK, this is great conversation! Ready Travis because I am. Lets go see. I too believe in Holy Presence. I will go to listen and learn. There is power in the gathering and I really like the conversation. Who's in?
Oh, I'm going
I'll be there with you. Something we didn't talk about was whether or not to wear our collars. What do you think?
Definitely generating discussion
There is a lot of good points and ideas being brought to bear and I want to thank you all for participating. Continue to share your ideas and insights please. This is what Soul Cafe is for after all!
I have noticed that as I discuss this topic within my congregation and others within the ELCA that there is a hesitancy. We as Lutherans are not sure if it is appropriate or even wise for us to participate in a movement such as this. It seems quite politically charged, and, well, the people involved are not the kind we usually partner with. While I might say that the people involved seem to be the kind of poeple Jesus would have been involved with, I understand where people are coming from. The culture around the movement is so foreign to many within our congregations that they don't know where to find common ground. So let me propose some that has found traction with those I have been talking with.
Transparency. This is an idea that seems to continually fall flat within the political establishment but it is one that speaks to a great many people, on all sides of the issues. Where there is transparency there is no place for sin to hide. Whether that sin be fraud, injustice, nepotism, etc. If the system is clear and open such wrongdoing cannot last long in the light of public scrutiny. Can we as a church made up of many individuals and many viewpoints support and call for transparency within the systems of this nation? I have brought the idea up with various groups and none seem to take issue or offense at the notion.
Do you think a call from the national church, or at least our congregations, for greater transparency within gov't would be applauded by all our members? Why or why not? You may have noticed that I am trying to find something that could unite us as a church and give us a single voice for change within the system. This seems like a good place for us to start, what do you think?
God's blessings to all.
Travis Larsen
Takin' it to The Streets . . . .
What a great discussion on social justice and the church . . . Today October 25th Marchers will begin at 5pm at Director Park and end at Pioneer Courthouse Sq. The march is a show of support from various unions in the Portland area. My sister and I are meeting in Pioneer Sq at 4ish. Not only am I a union member of the American Postal Workers Union but I am also a member of God's House as well. I will join in this march in support of the 99% because I am part of that 99%. I am reminded of an article I read in the Huufington Post:
Revered Jim Wallis of Sojourners wrote an article on Huffington Post last week expressing his support for the protesters. Admitting that he does not know everything about the protesters and that some of them might not share his Christian views, he drew on the similarities between what he knew of the their goals and the goals of Christians who wish to enact social change through the teachings of Jesus:
poem and art from Dave B-R
This showed up on Project Believe part of this site. It has been said that a true movement will not survive without artists, poets, and songwriters bringing their perspective to it.These are good contributions to this movement: http://soulcafe.org/sites/default/files/occupy_poem.pdf
poem and art from Dave B-R
This showed up on Project Believe part of this site. It has been said that a true movement will not survive without artists, poets, and songwriters bringing their perspective to it.These are good contributions to this movement: http://soulcafe.org/sites/default/files/occupy_poem.pdf
Getting involved
Travis, you raise a very important point I'd like to address. From my work with the occupation, and with people outside of it, I've noticed the same hesitancy, not just with Lutherans, but in many groups that feel they are outside the Occupation demographic. The occupation can be intimidating. But I would venture to say that anyone who dreams of a more beautiful, just, sustainable world, is already a part of this movement. The question, in my opinion, is not whether you should participate, but how you can use your talents, skills, friendships, and strengths to participate in way that makes you feel comfortable. I think a lot of people get the feeling that if they are not camping downtown, they are not part of the occupation. That couldn't be farther from the truth! The occupations are not the movement, the occupations are the placeholders of the movement, reminders that we will not give up our hopes for a better world. They are the flowers, but we can be the roots, quitely growing, gathering strength, and making connections.
This is the work I feel called to personally. I am new to your community, I was not raised a Lutheran, but already I have been moved by your compassion and commitment to social justice. So understand that I'm saying what I'm saying not because I want to change any one's opinion or impose my beliefs, but to offer the idea that our hopes of peace, aid, and understanding, are so similar that it would be a shame for Lutherans to feel alienated from this movement. I have many ideas of how individuals, communities, and congregations can get involved in ways they can feel excited about. I'm sure you all have much better ideas. If anyone here wants to get involved but doesn't know exactly how, let's start a dialogue, and together begin to make the changes we want to see in the world.
Blessings,
Sam
Occupy Tomorrow Project
Well said!
Thanks, Sam. I think this is well said.
For whatever reason many of us (myself included) seem to work with "either/or" imaginations. Either I am in or out. Either I support Occupy or I don't. This just isn't helpful. It alway becomes the basis for building walls and not bridges. Sure there are times decisions need to be made and actions - black and white types - need to taken, but we have a whole lot more capacity to live in the cracks than we think we do - and Christians (Lutherans) really need to come to understand themselves as 'crack dwellers.' As you point out, there are so many ways one might engage, and doing so absolutely does not mean you're buying everthing hook, line and sinker. It's just means we're walking together and trying to figure things out.
I think Occupy people understand this. I hear on the news, "I don't necessarily speak for hte movement, but . . ." That's the deal in my opinion."I'm a Christian, I don't necessarily speak for the whole Church, but here is what I'm doing and why." Once upon a time we used to call that "testimony" and it's uniqueness was highly respected - as was the speaker!
I love that we're continuing
I love that we're continuing with this discussion. I agree with you Bishop, we do after all do have a personal relationship with Christ and therefore each of us has a personal opinion about what that means. Thank you for letting me testify.
Crack dwelling . . . Embracing the Grey
I think that we Christian (Lutherans) have a great capacity to be crack dwellers because we have a ton of practice living in the grey. Our theology, at its core, is a both/and theology. Our denomination is uniquely practiced in living in the cracks, sitting on the fence, embracing the grey. I love that about us, honestly. It is into movements precisely like Occupy that this offers us skills of engagement.
My best friend is active in Occupy Oakland and the first thing she said when I asked her what it was about was, "the best way to answer that is for you to come down to camp and start asking people why they're there and then to listen. There are a hundred people and a hundred reasons." What an amazing statement. The diversity and grey and dialogue that is existing among the people is clearly inspiring to those experiencing it, no matter what their reason is for showing up. In a denomination where we don't have to be "right" or "perfect" in order to know God's grace we have a freedom to just go and be. We don't have to go and take over with a unifying agenda. We can just go and be with and among and listen. There is no telling what incredible things we could hear the Holy Spirit doing.
I am struck tonight, as I am supposed to be preparing my sermon, that I found this conversation as I contemplate All Saint's Day and the Beatitudes. What we are seeing now in our country isn't new. Saints before us have faced this struggle to find ways to stand with integrity among a diverse people with diverse opinions. I am touched that the Holy Spirit gave us the Beatitudes in our readings this year . . . perhaps we all need to remember that we are blessed. No matter where we are standing, but perhaps especially when we're standing in the cracks.
justice occupy wall street
I appreciate your thoughtful approach to this phenomenon, Travis.
Most of us are in the 99%. That doesn't mean we're in sync with the occupiers, whatever the agenda may be. I think we should be careful as a church to distinguish between solidarity for the oppressed and buying into any lobbyist's agenda. Self interests have a way of masquerading as greater good, and lots of us are pre-disposed to social justice. Just a caveat about how to keep our eye on the ball.....
Ps 146:
Praise the Lord...
...he upholds the cause of the oppressed, and gives food to the hungry....
...Praise the Lord.
Pretty basic, (and fulltime) even though we make it more complicated and peripheral?
Best regards.
Bruce Anderson
Leadership Model and Pastoral Perspective
It has irked me how disrespectful media and others have been on this movement's leadership model. It appears to be a consensus based model, nothing unusual for many of us. It's a model I've seen in church councils. I understand why politicians and corporate entities like big media think it's strange and to be mocked -- those are cultures of winners and losers. Why would they want to open the conversation for all input? It takes too much time and you might not be able to power-broker your way.
I've thought about participation as a Pastor in events like the Occupy movement. I hope that our clergy have the courage of their convictions as well as sensitivity to their congregations. As I understand our theology of ordination and call, the Pastor is not a hiree of a congregation. The congregation interviews, and seeks the guidance of the Holy Spirit in calling a Pastor to serve as Christ's steward among them. We accept the call as one who serves the congregation, but is a servant of God.
If this is anywhere near accurate then I feel the freedom of the Christian to speak my mind and join in a movement . . . as an individual who is a Pastor. At the same time, if I'm serving a congregation I don't think I have the right to speak for the congregation unless that permission has been granted. That permission granting is a congregationally internal process.
I know that some congregations and members don't understand this distinction. That means if we do take a stand there will be flak. But it also gives the opportunity to speak to the relationship of the Pastor as individual believer and leader of a congregation.
I know that for some Pastors there is a job risk, theology not-withstanding. It is at that point that each of us should do a conscience level gut check. I know there are times that I wish I would have been more courageous than I was. In retrospect I don't' think expediency serves God's realm well.
1% vs 99%
Seems like it is not very Christian to separate out 1% of people for chastisement. We are all part of creation. Seems like as Christians we should do what we can to make things better. Seems like the Occupy movement is just complaining and not doing anything. Seems like the best thing to do is take our deposits out of the big banks and then to vote libertarian and keep the the money out or the hands of the federal and state governments and back in the local community where it belongs.
Parable of the Talents
Sunday Sermon: I got to be with the folks at Bethel Lutheran in Portland this past Sunday, the "day after" for Occupy Portland. The Gospel Lesson was Matther 25:14-30. It's the parable of the talents. Hopefully you were in church and heard it, or maybe you know it. Anyway, I decided that the sin of the slave who buried his one talent in the ground was that he removed the resource for the public sphere. If he had at least "given it to the bankers" it would have been available for somebody else to borrow so they didn't lose their home. As it was, he kept the wealth entrusted to him away from public access which causes the system as a whole to get all constipated. Seeing as earning interest was considered a sin by the Judaism of Jesus' day there must have a been a compelling reason for the rich man to be upset. It is the 1%, after all, who creates a lot of our jobs!!
I was also interested in the notion of "bankers" showing up in a Biblical parable. They didn't have bankers in Jesus' day! So, I did my research. The Greek (New Testament) word tranlated as "bankers" comes from the Greek work for "table," as in Jesus overturning the tables/bank of the money changers at the temple; or the foreign woman who came to Jesus asking for her child to be healed, only to be told that "it is not right to give the children's bread to the dogs." Her response was that even the dogs eat the bread from their master's table/bank!!
Interesting NYT article
Found an interesting article in the Times regarding the Occupy movement and bearing Christian witness without "preaching".
BTW, this is my first post here in Soul Cafe. Thank you ELCA!
Chaplains
Interesting article. I like the notion of 'chaplain' as used here. It's a great way to conceive of our presence in the world!
(and that would thank you Region1 of the ELCA, not to be too partisan about it!!! More financial partners welcome.)
We are the Many - Makana
http://vimeo.com/31938326
Wow. First great song of the movement? Not sure I ke the video, but the music is powerful.
Public Theology
Hello Folks, I am very happy to see the good conversation here about the Occupy movement. I was there in Portland Saturday night when the encampment was evicted by the police, with a clergy group of about 30. Since I live downtown it has been easy for me to get to various events. I was especially happy to see the series of events closing down banks today, November 17.
Some of you have asked about resources for understanding Christian/Lutheran involvement in this movement. I maintain a website called Pubic Theology that provides just such resources, lots of them. Some of these are my own writings as well as key pieces from others. You can find the site at this address: pubtheo.com. I just finished a blog item called "God Demands Justice".
I have been a pastor in the Oregon Synod since 1983, was gone for ten years, and have recently returned to Portland, now retired. I am happy to discuss these matters with others. My email is edk (at) pubtheo.com and my cell phone is 503-318-3175.
Ed Knudson
closing down banks
You were happy to see the events closing down banks. There was a time in this country when closing banks was a bad thing. I don't have my money in Wells Fargo but their military account has worked well for my son in the Army. Those occupy people need to look in the mirror. No one put a gun to anyone's head to sign for one of those sub prime loans. No one forced anyone to take out loans to go to four years of seminary. The best thing the ELCA can do is cut seminary to one year. For those of you who are supporting the Occupy movement; what if a seminary student said one year is enough and found a church to ordain him or her. Would you support that? That would be God's justice. Think about it...John Collet
"Supporting" Occupy
I find the notion of "supporting" Occupy interesting. It seems to me that most folks who have been camping out have been careful to speak only for themselves, honoring the diffences between the many who share largely similar concerns. I support the conversation. I support the largely respectful manner in which most (not all) in the movement have sought to include and listen to everybody. I support the experiment of seeking to feed, counsel and engage each other in an egalitarian style. I certainly don't support everything just anybody or everybody says or does. I think that's the way most people have responded to the movement, although that is beginning to deteriorate now. It's hard to know just from news reports, though. I don't think the media has really portrayed what this is all about very well. You only see that if you're on the ground. The media likes the conflict, the extreme, the bazaar. They don't show the drug counseling thats going on, or the healthy, self-policing, or all the people down there who do in fact have jobs, etc.
Welcome Home, Ed!
... and, thanks for your entry.
What I found interesting (and maybe telltale as well) was the response you provoked from JCollet ... apparently thinks the way to make things good and right is to have ELCA seminaries cut the requirements for ordination to one year of schooling. Of course, the person has the right to think and talk that way, whether it would make any real difference in light of his argument.
Maybe we retirees ought to remind the commentators we have had a 30% reduction in our pension in the last three years; even if some of us served 45 years after our four year seminary training on top of the four years of undergrad study. Seems that's plenty of grounds for a gripe against Morgan Chase, etc. ... those banks who are part of the issues of the Occupy Movement.
And, we could say alot about how sem grads today face an overwhelming debt load that somehow -- what with work opportunities, GI Bill benefits, grants and scholarships -- we did not face in the mid-60s.
Student debt
Thanks 'retired guy.' My kids are all in their 20s and mostly thought school. While none of them are seminarians two of the three or in, or out of, grad school. They have very little school debt, but it took three generations of family support to make that happen - that is, gifts from grandparents, support from my wife and me, and scholarships they earned and jobs they held while in school.
While nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head to take out school or home loans, what is happening, as in the past, is trust in the system. "The banker said this was a good deal and I trusted the professional." "You have to have a college degree to get a good job." etc. The younger generation did what they were told, just as my generation did. Only, it hasn't worked out.
My kids and I have been fortunate to live in a family that could keep support close to home. We're not the 1%, but we're the privileged. It won't be the same for my children's children, though. The accumulated benefits of the GI Bill and other appropriate social supports have run their course. The rules have changed and the young, the retired and the unemployed are carrying the burden.
Some great ELCA resources
I am a newcomer to this forum and have been involved a bit with Occupy Seattle. We are having some folks from that group to our congregation for lunch this coming Sunday. I just want to remind us of a couple really good resources for those of us in ELCA congregations. The social statement "Sufficient, Sustainable Livelihood for All" is such a durable and excellent piece of work. If we studied it 10 or 12 years ago, it's time to bring it out again. The Occupy people I talked to were quite interested in it. Also, the first social statement of the ELCA "The Church in Society: A Lutheran Perspective" is really relevant to issues around Occupy. Here's a quote to wet your appetite: As a prophetic presence, this church has the obligation to name and denounce the idols before which people bow, to identify the power of sin present in social structures, and to advocate in hope with poor and powerless people. When religious or secular structures, ideologies, or authorities claim to be absolute, the church says, "We must obey God rather than any human authority" (Acts 5:29). [3] With Martin Luther, this church understands that "to rebuke" those in authority "through God's word spoken publicly, boldly and honestly'' is "not seditious" but "a praiseworthy, noble, and...particularly great service to God." [4]
the church and the occupy novement
It's good to see this discussion going! Since returning to the US a year ago, I have been reflecting on what it means for churches here to connect more with the movements of public moral outrage occurring today around the world, including here in the Pacific NW. I have recently completed an article to be published in the Spring 2012 issues of the theological journal, Dialog, entitle, Ekklesia in the Midst of Public Outrage Today, which I wiould be willing to send to anyone interested (or find a way to post here)
Karen Bloomquist
Bellingham, WA
To post Ekklesia in the Midst of Public Outrage Today
Karen,
I am interested. To post:
Hope that helps.
OWS in NYC - a pastor's perspective
I'm an ordained Baptist pastor (no longer in the pastorate), and I've become involved with the Occupy Wall Street Movement at it's epicenter - Zuccotti Park in Manhattan. I'm so pleased and encouraged by the notes that so many of you have posted in this thread. The the churches that I have tried to interest so far have in many cases been very unresponsive - or even patronizing or critical. I think that the 3 suggestions made by Jim Wallis were on the mark as far as how we can be involved. We can show up and learn, encourage, support - we can spread the word to those who still aren't aware of the issues - we can try to bring the 99% together on common ground and harness their massive influence, etc. etc. I have to rush off, so I don't have time for a long post, but I started a blog and I'm planning to systematically write at length about everything there - and from a Christian point of view (as best I can). There are also a lot of resouces there for those who are interested (and many more coming) - including in the documentation of my posts. If you're interested, please take a look and follow me or post something there. God bless! and power to the people! Pastor Bill occupyevangelicals.org #oc_evangelicals clergyoncallministries.com
Has the movement fizzled?
I started this discussion some time ago and have chosen to take a step back recently, the business of the holidays being part of that. A great many wonderful and interesting points of view have been shared here and I want to thank everyone for participating.
Things have changed since I began this discussion. Many of the nations Occupy movements have been forced out or been co-opted by groups with a more specific agenda. While I don't want to place judgement on whether or not that is a good or bad thing, it leaves many of us a bit disallusioned about the whole experiment. Here in Portland the verdict about the Occupy group is mixed, while many agreed with the principles espoused by much of the group, they were not impressed by how it played out and what was done to the parks by the group. I fear cynicism is getting the better of many who observed what happened.
So where does that leave us as the church? What have we learned from this "happening"? It is clear that there are a number of disaffected people out there who are tired of the way things are going and looking for a way to voice it. That process is now begun but the message got muddled. Can we help to offer a clearer message for the world? Does our Gospel envoke many of the principles that the various Ocuppy movements (perhaps) tried to share?
We seem to be at a junction in history where either the church steps in once again and refocuses the nation are we take a side seat and eventually become a cliffnote to Western history. This is perhaps an overly dramatic statement, but it carries the fears of the people in my congregatino and others that I have spoken with. People do not know what is coming next for the church or the nation. They are worried and afraid. Should they be?
For my part, I am not worried or afraid for the Gospel. God will not pass away into the annauls of history. But our church might, it is a human institution and therefore does not necessarily have the ear and voice of God in all things, particularly if we choose to take the safe rout and ignore the lessons of the prophets and our Lord Christ. The Gospel is not a safe thing and if we choose comfort and safety, I fear that we are by definition, not choosing the Gospel.
Where do you think the Gospel is calling us?
What have we learned from this "happening"?
Hey Travis:
I think that one thing to learn from the Occupy experience is that it's important to kick the tires on the band wagon before getting on. It might also be important to learn where a band wagon is going before jumping on.
It might also be important to figure out who is going to pay for the effects of the band wagon. In Portland alone the cost to cash-strapped tax payers was well over a million dollars. My son is a first grade teacher in an underprivileged school in Seattle. Heck, a million bucks could have paid for salary and benefits for his ministry to those kids for 15 years.
We probably took many individual learning experiences from now fizzled "movement." And whatever each of us has learned, it's probably going to help us when the next thing comes along, which it will.
Eric Burtness
Zion, Redmond
Healthy Skepticism
A little healthy skepticism is always a good thing, but we don't want it to keep us from acting. It is easy to sit back and comment on what could or should have been done, but I am more interested in what we should be doing. What are you/we doing to reach the people of the Occupy movement? Or the Tea Party movement for that matter? These are all God's people and clearly they are not happy with how things are going. What can the church offer them? What does the Gospel call on us to do?
I would love to hear your thoughts. God's blessings on us all in this time of discontent.
What have we learned from this "happening"?
LOVE what you wrote Eric!
Occupy and Tea
Interesting that you should mention the Tea Party as well as Occupy. I don't think it is much of a stretch to see points of convergence between the two -- anger at a government that no longer seems to represent them. That perception is multi-faceted.
At this year's convo Nessan certainly was not shy about stating that the middle class continues to shrink and the poor get poorer -- as a call to speak for those whom power is abusing.
I'd throw another group into the conversation. Our all volunteer military is comprised of only 1% of the population and is disproportionately taken from the economic underclass. This allows us to take ideological stands for or against military action that has no direct effect on most of us.
On the one hand Eric says we ought to be kicking the tires before we jump on the band wagon. The other hand would say s*** or get off the pot.
From my jaundiced point of view the gridlock in Washington D.C. is just fine for both parties -- both of which are the parties of the rich. By doing nothing they continue the status quo which rewards them. By doing nothing in response to conservative judicial activism (Corporations are just misunderstood people) there is no corrective when bad Supreme Court decisions could be addressed with legislative action.
I'm not sure I'm at the point of wanting to camp in the mud. But I can at least say, "Bully for you!' to those that do.
The Occupation Continues
It's the last day of January. Has anybody actually talked to anybody still active with the Occupy movement here in Portland? Seems like they are are best source of information and perspective. All we get from the media is the downside.
I talked with a young man still involved with Occupy just this past week. He says there are still many people involved with coordinated, ongoing work. Several focused interest groups have been formed which work semi-independantly and semi-coordinatedly. Sounds interesting. Let's get information from thsoe who actually know!!
Occupy and the Media
The Bishop points out that media info on Occupy is negitive.
Is this a surprise? Occupy dares to speak against money, which, next to football, is the god of America.
If they REALLY wanted to hack people off they'd occupy a football stadium -- that would gore the oxes of money AND football.
(Just sayin')